【云德资讯】精英律师院长说访谈系列 | 马雪杏——懂业务，才能做好律师

马雪杏，毕业于清华大学法学院，硕士。伦敦大学法学院国际课程在读。深圳技术标准研究院ISO/TC309国内技术对口专家。

Ma Xuexing， Graduated from Qinghua University Law School with a master's degree.University of London Law School is studying international courses. Shenzhen Institute of Technical Standards ISO/TC309 Domestic Technical Counterpart Expert.

现任宝能汽车法务中心副总经理，组建专业合规、法务、知识产权团队；搭建公司法律、合规和知识产权体系和标准化流程；为公司的经营管理和决策提供合规及法律支持，提供各类合规及法律咨询意见；指导公司的知识产权管理工作，推动公司知识产权战略的落地。

Currently, she is the deputy general manager of Baoneng Automobile Legal Center and has set up a professional compliance,legal and intellectual property team. Establish the company's legal,compliance and intellectual property systems and standardized processes;Provide compliance and legal support for the Company's management and decision-making, and provide all kinds of compliance and legal advice;To guide the company's intellectual property management and promote the implementation of the company's intellectual property strategy.

加入宝能汽车之前，马雪杏总曾任深圳腾势新能源汽车有限公司首席合规官兼法务总监；中兴通讯股份有限公司北美法务总监，负责中兴通讯在欧美高端市场的合规和法律事务，曾主导“两反一保”、美国国家安全调查等多个公司级重大涉外贸易、投融资项目。

Before joining Baoneng Automobile,Ma Xuexing was the chief compliance officer and legal director of Shenzhen Tengshi New Energy Automobile Co., Ltd.The North American Legal Director of ZTE Corporation Limited is responsible for ZTE's compliance and legal affairs in high-end markets in Europe and the United States. She has led many major foreign trade, investment and financing projects at the company level, such as the "Two Opposition and One Insurance" and the US National Security Investigation.

Q：马总，您好，很荣幸邀请您来到云德律师学院首届院长论坛，作为知名企业负责法务的副总，您可否跟我们分享您对云德律所的印象和感受？

Q: Glad to see you, Mr. Ma. It is a great honor to invite you to the first Dean's Forum of Yunde Law Firm. As the vice president in charge of legal affairs of well-known enterprises, can you share with us your impression and feelings on Yunde Law Firm?

A：好的，非常感谢丁主任和荆律师的邀请，我也是首次来到云德律所，看到这样一个很专业又很强大的队伍，很感触。咱们律所的年轻人比较多，来到这里的感受呢，就是阳光、大气，很开心。今天的主题也很好，探讨如何培养精英律师这个话题，可以让大家去深入思考。我曾经在八个国家工作过，参加了很多的会议、论坛，但是今天这个会议应该是我参加过最高级别的研讨会。因为在这里，我看到了很多之前只能在教科书中、裁判文书中见过或者知道的人，今天都见到了真人本尊，我感到非常荣幸。

A: OK, thank you very much for the invitation of Director Ding and Lawyer Jing. This is also my first time to come to Yunde Law Firm. I feel very touched to see such a very professional and powerful team. There are many young people in our law firm. The feeling of coming here is sunshine, atmosphere and happiness. Today's topic is also very good. Discussing how to train elite lawyers can make everyone think deeply. I have worked in eight countries and attended many meetings and forums, but today's meeting should be the highest-level seminar I have ever attended. Because here, I have seen many people who have only seen or known in textbooks and referee documents before, and I feel very honored to see the real person today.

Q：那您作为企业代表，能否根据您的实务经验，谈一谈您对培养精英律师的看法？

Q: As a representative of the enterprise, can you talk about your views on training elite lawyers based on your practical experience?

A：根据刚才前面的各位老师讲的，法学院是作为人才培养的上游，律师事务所是作为锻造人才的中游，作为企业来讲，我对我们的自身定位，我觉得应该算是下游。我作为企业负责法务方面工作的，结合我的工作经验，我大概跟大家分享几点我的观点。第一是现代企业要求法务或者律师能够做到事先预防。我现在发现很多企业的法务从原来的事后“灭火”转变成了现在的事前防火，启动了一个防火墙的功能。所以现代企业更注重的是企业发展过程中的风险防范，而不再是出了问题才想到寻求法律途径解决，往往这个时候的补救没法挽回很多损失。第二就是给企业做法律顾问，一定要懂业务，任何建议都应当建立在懂业务的基础上。律师这个职业是个实践性很强的职业，要和企业打交道，并且要为企业的发展建言献策，那必须站在企业的角度。企业是什么，企业是营利性质的单位组织，每个企业的发展都和他们的业务息息相关，所以作为法务或者我们律师要为企业服务，一定要从实务角度，以了解懂得所服务的企业的经营业务为基础，提出专业的建议。第三是关于合规，一定要重视合规方面的人才培养。目前在华为事件之后，很多企业都开始做合规，合规对企业的要求更严格，但是对企业发展更有保障。现代法学教育是在合规管理体系中培养，但是真正落地懂合规的人却很少，所以对于企业来讲，合规是现代企业从源头上保证健康发展的一个重要部分。而实务中提出合规方案或者建议的法务或者律师，更多是在交易过程中说“不”的人，但是每一个“不”说出来要起到它的作用，否则作为法务或者律师，在这个企业的存在感就很小，对企业发展无法起到帮助作用。

A: According to what the teachers in front said just now, the law school is the upper reaches of talent cultivation, and the law firm is the middle reaches of talent forging. As an enterprise, I think our own position should be regarded as the lower reaches. As an enterprise responsible for legal work, combined with my work experience, I would like to share some of my views with you. The first is that modern enterprises require lawyers or lawyers to be able to prevent in advance. I find that the legal affairs of many enterprises have changed from the original "fire fighting" after the event to the current "fire fighting in advance" and started the function of a firewall. Therefore, modern enterprises pay more attention to the risk prevention in the process of enterprise development, instead of seeking legal solutions when problems arise. Often, remedies at this time cannot recover many losses. The second is to be a legal adviser to an enterprise. One must understand the business. Any suggestion should be based on understanding the business. Lawyer is a very practical profession. To deal with enterprises and make suggestions for the development of enterprises, one must stand from the perspective of enterprises. What is an enterprise? An enterprise is a profit-making unit organization. The development of each enterprise is closely related to their business. Therefore, as a legal officer or our lawyer, to serve the enterprise, we must put forward professional suggestions from a practical point of view based on understanding the business of the enterprise we serve. The third is about compliance. We must attach importance to the training of personnel in compliance. At present, after the Huawei incident, many enterprises have begun to comply with the regulations. Compliance requires stricter requirements for enterprises, but it is more secure for the development of enterprises. Modern legal education is trained in the compliance management system, but few people really understand compliance, so for enterprises, compliance is an important part of modern enterprises to ensure healthy development from the source. In practice, lawyers or lawyers who put forward compliance plans or suggestions are more people who say "no" in the transaction process, but each "no" must play its role. Otherwise, as lawyers or lawyers, their presence in this enterprise is very small and cannot help the development of the enterprise.

Q：通过您的分析，我们知道了现代企业对于法务或者律师的需求已经不仅仅在与简单的事后处理纠纷，或者独立剥离开来的一个部门，而是对企业发展起着重要作用的一个“谏臣”的角色。那么未来要如何培养法律人才能起到助力企业发展的作用，对这一点，您有没有什么建议？

Q: Through your analysis, we know that the demand of modern enterprises for legal affairs or lawyers is not only a simple post-event dispute handling or an independent department, but also a "remonstrant" role that plays an important role in the development of enterprises. So how to train legal personnel in the future to help the development of enterprises? Do you have any suggestions on this?

A：对于律所来说，培养精英律师是很不容易的，因为现代法学教育是偏理论方面的，如果要做律师，就要接触各种各样的实务，如果要做公司的法务或者像华为这样的大企业，他们有专门的法律部门，里面由500多人组成，他们的首席法务官，同时也是公司的副总裁，他对华为的项目有一票否决权，像这样的公司的法务，就需要和实务、公司业务接轨，对业务非常熟悉，才能站在发展的角度，结合法律从问题的本身出发，提出解决问题的方案。若不懂业务，那么就只能从法律角度，大谈风险，我们都知道，经营企业肯定是有风险的，如何去规避这些风险，如何让既存的风险降到最低，促成交易，这才是关键。所以接着刚才说第四点，在职场上要把自己打造成学习型人才，现在很多业务都需要法律人才，所以不断学习，不断接触新的业务，这样才能保持发展的状态，才能发挥法律的作用。第五就是企业要发展，公司的法务一定要和外部律所保持联系，大多数法务都是针对企业内部日常能处理的事务的，如果牵扯到非日常事务，一定要让外部律师去接洽，但是内部法务也要结合业务保证方案的可实施。在这个过程中，法务是和律师共同成长的，而企业要不断的发展壮大就一定要保持与外部律师的联系，律师对解决企业困境，保证企业发展能够起到很大的作用。

A: For law firms, It is not easy to train elite lawyers, Because the modern law education is partial theory aspect, If you want to be a lawyer, It is necessary to contact with all kinds of practices, If you want to be the legal affairs of a company or a large enterprise like Huawei, They have a special legal department, It consists of more than 500 people. Their chief legal officer is also the vice president of the company. He has a veto over Huawei's projects. The legal affairs of companies like this need to be in line with practice and the company's business and are very familiar with the business. Only in this way can they come up with a solution to the problem from the perspective of development and in combination with the law from the problem itself. If you don't understand the business, then you can only talk about risks from a legal point of view. We all know that there must be risks in running an enterprise. How to avoid these risks, how to minimize the existing risks and how to facilitate transactions are the key. Therefore, I went on to say the fourth point just now. I have to turn myself into a learning talent in the workplace. Now many businesses need legal talents. Therefore, I have to keep learning and contact with new businesses. Only in this way can I maintain the state of development and play the role of law. The fifth is that in order for the enterprise to develop, the company's legal affairs must keep in touch with external law firms. Most of the legal affairs are aimed at the daily affairs that the enterprise can handle. If non-daily affairs are involved, external lawyers must be allowed to contact, but the internal legal affairs must also be combined with the implementation of the business guarantee scheme. In this process, legal affairs grow up together with lawyers, and enterprises must maintain contact with external lawyers if they want to continue to develop and grow. Lawyers can play a great role in solving the difficulties of enterprises and ensuring the development of enterprises.

Q：好的，非常感谢马总的分享，马总从实务角度给我们分享了做精英律师应当具备的几个条件，也为我们律师学院培养精英律师提供了思路，看来我们法律人才的培养任务是很艰巨而且漫长的。感谢您。

Q: OK, thank you very much for your sharing. You have shared with us several conditions that elite lawyers should have from a practical point of view, and has also provided ideas for our law college to train elite lawyers. It seems that the task of training our legal talents is very arduous and long. Thank you.