【云德访谈】精英律师院长说访谈系列 | 姬亚平——精英律师，一块短板不能有

人物介绍

    姬亚平，教授，博士生导师，法学博士，西北政法大学行政法学院（纪检监察学院）院长，陕西省宪法学研究会会长，中国行政法学研究会理事，陕西省行政法学研究会副会长，西安市人民政府等单位法律顾问，陕西省第五届十大中青年法学家，兼职律师。主要研究领域为宪法、党内法规、行政法与行政诉讼法。先后发表学术论文40余篇，独著《行政奖励法治化研究》、《行政证据制度构建研究》等，主编《行政诉讼法学》等，主持国家社科基金项目等九项课题。

    Ji Yaping, Professor, Doctoral supervisor, Doctor of Law, Dean of Northwest University of Politics and Law School of Administration (Discipline Inspection and Supervision School), President of Shaanxi Constitutional Law Research Association, Director of China Administrative Law Research Association, Vice President of Shaanxi Administrative Law Research Association, Legal Adviser of Xi'an Municipal People's Government and other units, Fifth Top Ten Young and Middle-aged Jurists and Part-time Lawyers in Shaanxi Province. The main research fields are constitution, inner-party regulations, administrative law and administrative procedure law. He has published more than 40 academic papers, published only "Research on the Legalization of Administrative Rewards" and "Research on the Construction of Administrative Evidence System", edited "Administrative Procedure Law" and presided over nine topics such as the National Social Science Fund Project.

    采访ing

    Q：姬院长您好！很荣幸能够邀请到您来参加云德律师学院首届院长论坛，您能否先谈一谈在论坛现场的感受？

    Glad to see you, Dean Ji! It is a great honor to invite you to attend the first Dean's Forum of Yunde Law College. Can you talk about your feelings at the forum first?

    A:好的。我和云德是老朋友了，我们两个单位已经建立了合作关系。今天是第一次参加学术论坛活动，看到了很多熟悉的面孔，非常高兴。恭喜丁主任获得陕西十大法治人物。每次来你们这里，都能真切感受到云德律师的精气神，各位着装统一、西装革履，身居高档写字楼、优雅、干练，和电视上的律师一模一样。这不就是今天的论坛主题—精英律师的真实写照吗（姬式幽默上线）？还有现场大家的发言，了解到云德律所竟然办了律师学院，据我了解是首创，对我们高校来说，补了短板，这也是英国古老的律师培养模式，就是新老律师之间手把手的师徒模式。我们现在法学教育就缺少这种模式，基本技能没人传授，我记得我大学毕业后代理第一个案子，被法官收拾了一顿，因为我用蓝色圆珠笔在庭审记录上签了字，当时我就怀疑自己上了个假大学，没有一个老师教我们签字用什么笔。丁主任大胆的想法很多，所以希望把他聘请来学校做客座教授，到学校分享经验，让学生们亲身感受传说中的精英律师是怎么炼成的，相信比《精英律师》那个电视剧精彩！

    All right. Yunde Law Firm and I have work together for a long time, and our two units have established a cooperative relationship. Today is my first time to participate in an academic forum. I am very happy to see many familiar faces. Congratulations to Director Ding for winning the top ten legal figures in Shaanxi. Every time I come to your office, I can really feel the vigor and vitality of Yunde lawyer. Everyone is dressed in uniform, dressed in suits and tie, and lives in high-grade office buildings. They are elegant and capable, just like the lawyers on TV. Isn't this the true portrayal of the theme of today's forum-elite lawyers (Ji-style humor online)? There was also a speech from everyone on the scene. I learned that Yunde Law Firm actually set up a lawyer's college. As far as I know, it is the first of its kind. For our colleges and universities, it has made up for the shortage. This is also an ancient training mode for lawyers in Britain, that is, a mentoring mode between new and old lawyers. We now lack this mode of legal education, and no one has taught us basic skills. I remember that I represented the first case after graduating from college and was tidied up by the judge, because I signed the trial record with a blue ballpoint pen. At that time, I suspected that I went to a fake university and no teacher taught us what pen to sign. Director Ding has many bold ideas, so he hopes to come to the school as a visiting professor and share his experience with the school, so that the students can personally feel how the legendary elite lawyer was tempered, believing that it is better than the TV series "Elite Lawyer" .

    Q:高校法学院以及法学教育者肩负着塑造灵魂、塑造生命、塑造卓越法治人才的使命，您从事法学教育很多年，在法律理论和法律实践教学方面造诣颇深，您认为如何才能成就一名精英律师？

    Law schools and legal educators in colleges and universities shoulder the mission of shaping souls, life and outstanding legal talents. You have been engaged in legal education for many years and have deep attainments in legal theory and legal practice teaching. What do you think about become an elite lawyer?

    A:如何成就一名精英律师，我讲三个关键词：常识、理论和技能。先说常识。我认为，从平凡律师到精英律师之前还有一步，就是要学会做人，掌握做人的常识，做好一个普通的人。人一出生仅仅是个生物人，通过教育成为一个社会人，这就是人的社会化。这个过程就是学会做人的基本常识。遗憾的是现在的学校和家庭都遗漏了这一课，学校整天传授的是数理化，家长热衷于给孩子报各种各样的培训班，但是，一些做人的常识却没有人去讲，这是我们教育的悲哀。没有这些常识，就做不好一个普通人，更罔谈精英了。比如做人的基本礼仪，有些人读到研究生了都不懂，吃饭的时候直接坐到主桌主位上，也不知道给老师添个茶。交流的时候局促不安，不够大气。很多人不会基本的沟通技巧，宿舍里发生误解或冲突，男生动拳头，女生搞冷战，这完全没必要。我在国外和小孩交流，感觉就像小大人似的，彬彬有礼，落落大方。所以，我一直在给学生们补这一课，这一课适用于所有的人，当然包括律师。第二，理论素养对于律师至关重要。有人讲，医生和律师越老越吃香，意思是医生和律师是个经验活，我不完全同意这种观点，经验很重要，但不是全部，理论同样重要。律师要说服法官，不光靠的是法条，还要讲理，这个理就是法理。同一个法条，原告和被告有不同的理解，你要证明自己的理解是正确的，就要有自己的理论。比如说，有个电影叫《我不是药神》，是根据真实的案例改编的，当事人贩卖仿制药貌似违反了法律，构成了犯罪。但是，其行为后果是挽救了很多人的生命，没有危害性。这就涉及到形式法治和实质法治理论，形式法治主张所有的法条都要严格地执行，而不问法的价值。实质法治强调法的内在价值，法治是以促进社会治理为目标，维护公平正义，增进人民的福祉。法治的发展是有阶段性的，形式法治是法治的初级阶段，我国经过四十年的法治建设，正在由形式法治走向实质法治，十八届四中全会提出良法善治理念。法官不是法律的搬运工，要运用自己的能动性有效地治理社会，追求法的价值，促进法的价值与社会价值的相统一。这样的辩护意见取得了法官的认可，最后当事人被宣判无罪。可以看出，理论对于律师工作的重要性。学习法律必须意识到这一点，有个学生讲，刚刚考完试，法律修改了，这一学期白学了，这是不对的，就像一个人吃完饭又排泄了，能说是白吃了吗？（姬式幽默一直在线）他得到了营养，强壮了身体。学习法律也是这样，法律修改了，但你的理论素养还在。尽管理论也在发展，但具有相对稳定性。一个精英律师，和普通律师相比，不仅掌握理论，还有能力发展理论。第三，谈谈律师的技能。我们学外语的时候老师常常说要学会听说读写。律师也一样，律师需要的技能很多，核心是听说读写。首先，要会听话，案件往往很复杂，当事人又缺乏法律专业，会给你说很多，洋洋洒洒，律师要会听，马上能抓住焦点，主动引导当事人谈话，而不是被动地听。其实，当事人也在考察律师，如果说了很多你还不得要领，他会怀疑你的能力，可能不会委托你了。其次，要会说话。律师第一任务是赢得客户，要善于推销自己，第二是和法官说话，争取法官的支持。说话要充满真诚和自信，语速和音量适中，侃侃而谈，行云流水；要条理清晰，防止东拉西扯；要观点鲜明，充分论证；简明扼要，风趣幽默；善于回应，避免自说自话。再次是会读。很多案件卷宗很厚，资料很多，阅读时应当制作阅卷笔记，一般以时间为纵坐标，以法律关系为横坐标，笔记图表化。阅卷要注意细节，细节决定成败，往往是一句话或者一份材料就决定案件的走向。最后要会写。写作是法律人的基本功，我看过很多判决书，说理不足，光是写原告诉称什么，被告辩称什么，本院判决如何。最关键的部分没有展开写，因为写不好，当事人当然不服，怎能让赢的一方赢得光明正大，让输的一方输得心服口服？律师也是，要写起诉状、答辩状、代理词，等等。既要条理清楚，简洁明了，又要有理有据，主题突出，防止长篇大论，不知所云，更不能病句连篇，或者说气话。这些技能要在学校里反复训练，所以，这是我们的职责。

    How to become an elite lawyer, I will talk about three key words: common sense, theory and skills.Let's talk about common sense first. In my opinion, there is still one step before going from an ordinary lawyer to an elite lawyer, that is, to learn to be a human being, to master the common sense of being a human being, and to be an ordinary person. When a person is born, he is only a biological person and becomes a social person through education. This is the socialization of human beings. This process is to learn the basic common sense of being a human being. It is a pity that both schools and families have missed this lesson. Schools teach mathematics, physics and chemistry all day long. Parents are keen to enroll their children in various training courses. However, no one talks about some common sense of being human. This is the sorrow of our education. Without these common sense, one cannot be an ordinary person, let alone an elite. For example, some people don't understand the basic etiquette of being a human being when they read about graduate students. When eating, they sit directly on the main table and don't know how to pour tea to the teacher. When communicating, I was embarrassed and did not have enough atmosphere. Many people do not know basic communication skills. Misunderstandings or conflicts occur in dormitories. Men have vivid fists and girls have cold war. This is totally unnecessary. When I communicate with children abroad, I feel like a little adult, polite and natural and graceful. Therefore, I have been making up this lesson for the students. This lesson is applicable to all people, including lawyers of course.Second, theoretical literacy is crucial to lawyers. Some people say that doctors and lawyers become more popular as they get older, which means that doctors and lawyers are experienced jobs. I do not fully agree with this view. Experience is very important, but not all. Theory is equally important. Lawyers need to convince judges not only by law but also by reason, which is legal principle. In the same law, the plaintiff and the defendant have different understandings. If you want to prove that your understanding is correct, you must have your own theory. For example, there is a movie called " Dying to Survive", which is based on a real case. The selling of generic drugs by the parties seems to violate the law and constitute a crime. However, the consequence of its actions is to save many lives and is not harmful. This involves the theory of formal rule of law and substantive rule of law. Formal rule of law advocates that all laws should be strictly implemented, regardless of the value of the law. Substantial rule of law emphasizes the intrinsic value of law. The rule of law aims at promoting social governance, safeguarding fairness and justice, and promoting the well-being of the people. The development of the rule of law has stages. Formal rule of law is the primary stage of the rule of law. After 40 years of construction of the rule of law, China is moving from formal rule of law to substantive rule of law. The Fourth Plenary Session of the 18th Central Committee put forward the concept of good law and good governance. Judges are not porters of the law. They should use their initiative to effectively govern the society, pursue the value of the law, and promote the unity of the value of the law and the value of the society. This defense opinion was approved by the judge, and finally the parties were acquitted. It can be seen that theory is important to lawyers' work. Learning the law must be aware of this. One student said that he had just finished the exam and the law had been amended. This semester he learned for nothing. This is wrong. It is like a person who excretes after eating. Can he say he has eaten for nothing? (Ji's humor has always been online) He has been nourished and strengthened. The same is true for studying the law. The law has been amended, but your theoretical accomplishment is still there. Although the theory is also developing, it is relatively stable. An elite lawyer, compared with ordinary lawyers, not only mastered the theory, but also developed the theory of ability.Third, Let’s talk about lawyers' skills. When we learn foreign languages, teachers often say that we should learn to listen, speak, read and write. The same is true for lawyers. Lawyers need many skills, the core of which is listening, speaking, reading and writing. First of all, to be obedient, the cases are often very complicated, and the parties lack legal expertise. They will give you a lot of advice. Lawyers should be able to listen, grasp the focus immediately, and actively guide the parties to talk instead of passively listening. In fact, the client is also examining the lawyer. If you are not to the purpose after saying a lot, he will doubt your ability and may not entrust you. Secondly, you should be able to speak. The first task of lawyers is to win clients and be good at selling themselves. The second task is to talk to judges and win their support. Speak should with sincerity and confidence, speak at a moderate speed and volume, speak with fervour and assurance, natural and smooth speaking. To be clear and prevent rambling; We should have a clear point of view and fully demonstrate it. Concise and to the point, funny and humorous; Be good at responding and avoid speaking just for yourself. Again, you must know how to read. Many case files are very thick and have a lot of materials. When reading, you should make marking notes, usually with time as the ordinate, legal relationship as the abscissa, and the notes are charted. Attention should be paid to details when marking papers. Details determine success or failure. It is often a word or a piece of material that determines the direction of the case. Finally, you have to be able to write. Writing is the basic skill of a legal person. I have read many judgments, but the reasoning is insufficient. I just write what the original statement said, what the defendant argued, and how the court decided. The most critical part was not written, because the writing was not good, and the parties concerned certainly refused to accept it. How can the winning party win fair and square and the losing party be convinced? Lawyers, also, have to write indictments, pleadings, attorneys, etc. It is necessary not only to be clear, concise and clear, but also to be reasonable and well-founded, with prominent themes, so as to prevent long speeches, ignorance, and even less to be full of sick sentences or angry words. These skills need to be trained repeatedly in schools, so this is our duty.

    Q: 您刚才提到了常识、理论、技能，也正好回应了律师的行业生态、业态方面的关切，您对云德律师学院的具体育人机制方面有哪些补充？

    You mentioned common sense, theory and skills just now, which also responds to the concerns of lawyers in terms of industry ecology and format. What supplements do you have to the specific education mechanism of Yunde Law College?

    A:云德律师学院运行十年了，刚看到部分成果的展示，我感到很欣慰，在云德受到如此系统培训的律师是幸福的，如果还要补充，我想再总结一个关键词“知行合一”。如何解释呢，也就是说从意识上可以再加强，加强对律师职业角色的意识、情怀和责任品质方面的培养，精英律师不再以赚钱为主要目标，要担当社会道义，践行家国使命；从行为能力的培养上再加强，让律师在专业视野、具体的知识和工作追求的行动方面再加强。

    Yunde Law College has been in operation for ten years. I am very gratified to witness some of the achievements. Lawyers who have received such systematic training in Yunde Law Firm are happy. If I have to add something, I would like to sum up another key word " knowledge and action combine together". How to explain it, that is to say, the consciousness can be further strengthened, and the cultivation of the consciousness, feelings and responsibility quality of lawyers' professional roles can be strengthened. Elite lawyers no longer take making money as their main goal, but should take on social morality and fulfill the mission of their family and country. From the training of behavior ability to strengthen, let lawyers in professional vision, specific knowledge and work pursuit of actions to strengthen.

    Q：谢谢姬院长。

    Thanks a lot, Dean Ji.