【云德访谈】精英律师院长说访谈系列|丁云波—精英律师是个人品牌影响力的制造者

                   人物介绍

丁云波，陕西云德律师事务所党总支书记、创办人、主任，中共党员，陕西省经济发展促进会（陕商商会）副会长、陕西省青年企业家协会理事、陕西省法学会能源法学研究会常务理事、陕西省法学会婚姻家庭研究会常务理事、陕西合肥之友理事会常务理事、陕西省律师协会文体专门委员会主任、西北大学法学院硕士生实务导师、西安财经大学法学院客座教授、西安培华学院客座教授、西安民间金融协会副会长、西安仲裁委仲裁员。个人先后荣获“全国律师行业优秀党员”、“陕西十大法治人物”、“陕西十佳顾问律师”“陕西省优秀党务工作者”、“陕西省法律援助先进个人”。

Ding Yunbo, Secretary, Founder and Director of the Party General Branch of Shaanxi Yunde Law Firm, Party members, Vice President of Shaanxi Province Economic Development Association (Shaanxi Merchants Association), Director of Shaanxi Young Entrepreneurs Association, Executive Director of Energy Law Research Association of Shaanxi Law Society, Executive Director of Marriage and Family Research Association of Shaanxi Law Society, Standing Director of the Friends of Hefei Council of Shaanxi Province, Director of the Sports Committee of Shaanxi Bar Association, Master's Practical Tutor of Northwestern University Law School, Visiting Professor of Xi'an University of Finance and Economics Law School, Visiting Professor of Xi'an Peihua University, Vice President of Xi'an Non-governmental Finance Association, and Arbitrator of Xi'an Arbitration Commission. Individuals have successively awarded the titles of "Outstanding Party Members in the National Lawyers Industry", "Top Ten Legal Figures in Shaanxi", "Top Ten Consultant Lawyers in Shaanxi", "Outstanding Party Workers in Shaanxi" and "Advanced Individuals in Legal Aid in Shaanxi".

    Q：您今年获得了“陕西十大法治人物”、“陕西十佳顾问律师”两大个人荣誉，可以说每个荣誉都是对您作为律师、作为法律人的高度褒奖，请问您能从自身经历并结合这次的院长论坛主题谈谈您对律师这个职业的认识吗？

    This year, you have awarded two personal honors of "Shaanxi's Top Ten Legal Figures" and "Shaanxi's Top Ten Consultant Lawyers". It can be said that each honor is a high praise for you as a lawyer and a legal person. Can you talk about your understanding of the profession of lawyer from your own experience and in combination with the theme of this Dean's Forum?

    A:我是1997年通过的全国律师资格考试，随后就开始从事专职律师，在步入律师行业的第20年这个节点上，能够获得上述荣誉，感慨颇多。律师制度恢复重建的40年，也是我们国家的经济建设、法治建设飞速发展的40年，回顾走过的路，我是愈发体会到律师的发展与国家的命运紧密相连，与时代的脉搏休戚相关。以我为例，90年代的律师执业条件、环境相对较差（比如学习的渠道基本就是看书本、翻阅文献资料，办案必须现场去沟通等）、法律服务市场基本是封闭的，现在的执业环境、法律服务市场需求与以前截然不同，所以我认为，律师行业未来从平凡走向卓越可能不需要二十年，十年甚至更短的时间就能实现。

    I passed the National Bar Examination in 1997, and then I began to work as a full-time lawyer. In my 20th year as a lawyer, I was able to obtain the above honor and felt a lot. The 40 years of restoration and reconstruction of the lawyer system are also the 40 years of rapid development in our country's economic construction and rule of law construction. Looking back on the road I have taken, I realize more and more that the development of lawyers is closely linked to the fate of the country and closely related to the pulse of the times. In my case, In the 1990s, the conditions and environment for lawyers to practice were relatively poor (for example, the channels for learning were basically reading books, reading documents and materials, and on-site communication was necessary for handling cases). The legal service market was basically closed. The current practice environment and the market demand for legal services are completely different from those before, so I think it may not take 20 years, 10 years or even less for the lawyer industry to move from ordinary to outstanding in the future.

    Q：最近电视剧《精英律师》成了年底的准爆款，您看了吗？您认为剧中的精英律师精英吗？您认为的精英律师是什么样的，精英律师需不需要像剧里的那样都会有一些华丽的title？

    Recently, the TV series "Suits" has become a quasi-explosive at the end of the year. Have you seen it? Do you think the lawyers in the play are elite? What do you think of elite lawyers? Do elite lawyers need to have some gorgeous titles like those in the play?

    A：这部剧我抽空也看了一些片段，毕竟是关于我们律师行业的一部剧，里面还是有一些知识点，有普法教育的意义。剧中的律师非常注重自己在客户面前的形象，语言表达、形象设计、走路姿态、西装、车等等都还算比较有档次，这方面讲还是比较符合精英律师定位的，就是在一定意义上还原了律师行业生态，但是真正的精英律师应该不止这些。我认为，精英律师的核心应该是认知、技能和素养。我经常给我们所的律师讲，我们培养的是精英律师，卓越律师，不是法律民工，每个律师都应该是在创业，需要你以创业者的心态去对待你的职业，因为目前的市场是完全开放的，每个客户都想找个有影响力的律师，需要你对市场有认知，市场也要对你有认知，所以真正的精英律师一定是个社会活动家，一定是通晓人性、通晓哲学、社会学、传播学等学科的人，如果没有认知到这一点，后面的两点技能和素养你就不可能刻意的去培养，也很难成为律界精英。因此从这种意义上来说，精英律师一定是个人品牌影响力的制造者。

    I also watched some fragments of this play when I took time . After all, it is a play about our lawyer industry. There are still some knowledge points in it, which is of significance for legal education. The lawyers in the play attach great importance to their image in front of their clients. Their language expression, image design, walking posture, suits, cars and so on are relatively classy. In this respect, they are still in line with the orientation of elite lawyers, that is, they restore the ecology of the lawyer industry in a certain sense, but the real elite lawyers should not stop there. In my opinion, the core of elite lawyers should be cognition, skills and accomplishment. I often tell our lawyers, We are training elite lawyers, distinguished lawyer, Not legal migrant workers, Every lawyer should be starting a business. You need to treat your career as an entrepreneur. Because the current market is completely open, Every client wants an influential lawyer, You need to have a knowledge of the market, and the market also needs to have a knowledge of you. Therefore, a real elite lawyer must be a social activist, a person who is familiar with human nature, philosophy, sociology, communication and other disciplines. Without this knowledge, you cannot deliberately cultivate the latter two skills and qualities, and it is difficult to become an elite in the legal field. Therefore, in this sense, elite lawyers must be the makers of personal brand influence.

    Q：律师从事的是实践性比较强的工作，您作为律所的管理者，您对精英律师的培养体制都比较关注哪些方面？请您谈一谈。

Lawyers are engaged in practical work. As the manager of a law firm, what aspects do you pay more attention to the training system of elite lawyers? Please talk about it.

    A：我们所已经连续举办三届律所管理论坛，讨论的主题都是专业化、行业化，为什么要办这样的论坛？因为我们发现目前的行业发展、产业链特点并没有被律师所熟悉，企业诉求是什么、这个企业所处的行业有哪些特点，否则律师是不能与企业产生共鸣的。据说西门子法务能够给企业创造18亿的创收，现在新加坡已经把律师作为产业了，律师成了商业规则的塑造者，还有华为的很多律师都是顶尖的国外律师，所以，我们的上游是法学院，建议法学院能不能考虑把企业法律服务加入课程设置？如果上游解决不了这个问题，实习律师在执业的短期内就无法胜任很多工作；我们还有公检法都是中游，下游是我们的上帝—客户。如果律师不符合社会客户的需求就很麻烦，律师是创业型行业，我们需要倾听下游的声音，所以特别鼓励我们的律师加入商会，参加商会活动，去担任实务导师，客座教授，将律师实践及时反馈到理论教育里面，因为源头搞不好，后面都是错的。我们需要把上中下三游打通，我也希望大家共同合力打造中国法律的长江黄河。

    Yunde Law firm have held three consecutive law firm management forums. The topics discussed are specialization and professionalization. Why should we hold such forums? Because we found that the current development of the industry, the characteristics of the industrial chain are not familiar to lawyers, what are the demands of the enterprise, and what are the characteristics of the industry in which the enterprise is located, otherwise lawyers cannot resonate with the enterprise. It is said that Siemens legal affairs can generate 1.8 billion yuan of income for enterprises. Now Singapore has taken lawyers as an industry. Lawyers have become the shapers of business rules. Many lawyers in Huawei are top foreign lawyers. Therefore, our upstream is the law school. It is suggested that the law school can consider adding corporate legal services to the curriculum. If this problem cannot be solved upstream, intern lawyers will not be competent for many jobs in a short period of time. We also have the public security and procuratorial organs in the middle reaches, and the lower reaches are our God-customers. If lawyers do not meet the needs of social clients, it will be very troublesome. Lawyers are entrepreneurial industries, and we need to listen to the voices of the downstream. Therefore, we especially encourage our lawyers to join the Chamber of Commerce, participate in the activities of the Chamber of Commerce, serve as practical instructors and visiting professors, and feed back the lawyer's practice to theoretical education in a timely manner, because the source is not good, and the back is wrong. We need to get through the upper, middle and lower trips. I also hope that everyone will work together to build the Yangtze River and Yellow River with Chinese laws.

    Q:目前国家的一带一路发展战略正在深入推进，云德律所也已经迈入国际化进程，您会在鼓励青年律师从平凡走向卓越的道路上给与什么样的建议？

    At present, the country's development strategy for the Belt and Road Initiative is advancing in depth, and Yunde Law Firm has also entered the process of internationalization. What advice would you give on encouraging young lawyers to move from ordinary to outstanding?

    A:随着国家战略一带一路的深入，尤其西安作为丝绸之路的起点，要建设成为国际化大都市，与一带一路发展战略有着日益紧密的联系，对于涉外人才的需求也日益迫切，尤其是对专业的法律人才服务需求。所以，我拿我带过的学生为例说，我每次给他们都说，在云德的传帮带都是毫无保留的，任何一个人的任何一点进步都是和自己的指导老师、与同事们的帮助分不开的。我之所以走律师、创办律所这条路，也是因为刚起步时老师的引导，手把手的培养兴趣，并提醒自己如何始终保持对律师事业的激情。因为法律是一个不断解决矛盾、无穷尽的去探究接近事实真相的事情，虽然大部分时间是枯燥的，但因为有了法律，把一些纷繁复杂的现象给解释清楚了，解决了太多问题的时候又是很有意思的事儿。所以，我会给他们充分开放的舞台，并被客户尊重的舞台。不管什么行业，卓越都代表着对自身的突破和超越以及做的更好的意识，尤其现在90后越来越成为行业的佼佼者，所以我希望他们都朝着成为大律师的目标去努力，在专业上要有成就、具备一定的社会形象、能够在大学担任老师、有知名度、能够创造价值、参加商会活动、具备终身学习的能力、有国际范儿等等，总之，不要自己设限，前途才会是不可估量的。

    With the deepening of the national strategy the Belt and Road Initiative, especially Xi'an, as the starting point of the Silk Road, is increasingly closely linked with the Belt and Road Initiative's development strategy to build itself into an international metropolis. The demand for foreign-related talents is also increasingly urgent, especially for professional legal talents. Therefore, I take the students I have taken as an example to say that every time I tell them that there is no reservation in helping and guiding in Yunde, and any progress made by anyone is inseparable from the help of his own guidance teachers and colleagues. The reason why I took the road of being a lawyer and setting up a law firm was also because the teacher guided me at the beginning, cultivated my interest hand in hand, and reminded myself how to keep my passion for the lawyer career all the time. Because the law is a constant solution to contradictions, endless exploration of things close to the truth, although most of the time is boring, but because of the law, it is very interesting to explain some complicated phenomena clearly and solve too many problems. Therefore, I will give them a fully open stage and a stage respected by customers. No matter what industry, Excellence represents the consciousness of breaking through and surpassing oneself and doing better. Especially now the post-90s generation is becoming more and more a leader in the industry, Therefore, I hope that they will all work hard towards the goal of becoming barristers. They should have professional achievements, have a certain social image, be able to serve as teachers in universities, have fame, be able to create value, participate in business association activities, have the ability to learn for life, have international standards and so on. In short, they should not set their own restrictions, and their future will be immeasurable.